Ever get the feeling that "your" team should've traded for a player or drafted someone other than whom they drafted? Well, here's something the Pats should've done: trade defensive end Richard Seymour.
Well, let's see, yes, he is a fan favorite, and yes, he helped New England win Super Bowls, but everyone on the those teams was part of the win, too.
Yet one can also argue that Seymour is a one-shot-wonder, because aside from his Super Bowl performance against the Philadelphia Eagles, he really hasn't done much else. Take last year, for example; he played in nine games and had 23 total tackles and 1.5 sacks. Astonishing numbers, right? Not so much.
But don't get me wrong about this, Seymour is still a good player.
Now, this brings me to the real reason why the Pats should've traded him. Seymour regularly plays ahead of fellow DE Jarvis Green, who, last year had a good, if not great, year, compiling 39 total tackles, 6.5 sacks, and two forced fumbles.
And so you can argue again that you can play these two players together in a 4-3 alignment, but other areas of the Patriots' defense need help.
They need fresh legs at Linebacker (the average age of ALL LB's on the team is 27 while the average age of STARTING LB's is 30) even though they already chose 3 of them in '08 Draft; and the Pats also have a suspect secondary now that Ellis Hobbs is the top guy.
- B/R Ticket Guide
Last year, New England, as you should all know, blew their opponents away, averaging nearly 37-points per game, while the opposition averaged a less-than-staggering 17 points/gm.
Here's the catch: From Week One to Week Seven, Richard Seymour was injured, and the Patriots averaged nearly 40 points, while giving up only 17 points per game. Then, from Weeks Eight through 17 (Week 10 was a bye), the Pats only scored 34 points/gm while giving up 17 points/gm again.
Oh well, six points isn't much, is it? But four out of the nine games Seymour played in, the Pats came very close to losing: Week Nine @ IND: 24-20; Week 12 vs PHI: 31-28; Week 13 @ BAL: 27-24; and finally Week 17 @ NYG: 38-35.
One other issue was the pass rush. Seymour had a measly 1.5 sacks, and Green had 6.5 sacks, along with his two forced fumbles. Although Seymour would average more tackles than Green, a quarterback sack has a much stronger affect on a game. A good pass-rush will also aid in their pass coverage.
As of now, you should probably be convinced that Richard Seymour should've been traded, and if you're not, here's more for you. "Who or what would the Pats get in return for him?" you ask.
The Patriots held the seventh-overall pick in the draft, giving them freedom to choose a top-tier player, but Jerod Mayo? He's a fine LB, but he was obviously over-picked...just look at him in the preseason. The Pats could've gotten a first-round pick for Seymour or at least a young and talented LB or CB.
Teams like Cincinnati, Oakland, Atlanta, Washington, Cleveland, the Jets, and possibly even Arizona come to mind. These teams all had holes in their defensive line before the draft, and some still do. All these teams also have a good, young cornerback or linebacker that New England could've gotten. Heck, they could've even packaged Seymour and the No. 7 pick for even more in return.
So, you can see, a Seymour trade would have propelled the Patriots' hopes of again becoming undefeated more so than keeping him would have.
(Sigh) Wouldn't everyone like to have heard this: "...And after finalizing the Richard Seymour deal, the Pats finish off a good offseason by drafting (your choice)."
Please give me your thoughts on this one.
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2 months ago
At first I thought you were retarded, but you backed up your reasoning pretty well. I disagree with you though because Richard Seymour wasn't 100% last year and will be this year. Also, I think that any 1st round CB pick would be a signficant downgrade from Seymour overall.
from 2 months ago
Haha thanks for being at least a bit constructive with your criticism...I can respect the fact that he wasn't 100% but the highest number of sacks he's ever gotten was 8 in '03 so it's not really that good...and don't think I hate Seymour..it's just they need more youth and speed on the defense
2 months ago
yeah .... pretty good comment on seymour...like you i have always been a skeptic of his and this puts it in perspective well
2 months ago
A player with seymour's size and skills are incredibly hard to find and vital to the 3-4 defense. His position is not designed to put up big numbers, his job is to tie up two blockers and he's one of the best in the game at it. To trade him for a cornerback, a position much less vital and easy to fill in this defense, would be foolish.
from 2 months ago
Exactly. Being a 3-4 DE isn't really a glamour position. He's supposed to control the LOS and let the LBs make plays, and he does that extremely well. Besides, who would the Pats gotten in return?
from 2 months ago
i can completely understand where you're coming from, and i understand everyone else's opinions as well. Now the Pats d-line is huge, we all know that..Wilfork already commands two blockers, and Warren ties two up occasionally as well, so if Seymour wasn't there, and you had someone who only takes up one blocker, that's already 4-5 offensive lineman blocking just these 3 guys which leaves 4 linebackers which includes Adalius Thomas who has d-lineman size as well and Rodney Harrison who's always out there "head-hunting"..their run defence is gonna be fine..and as for a conrnerback not being as important as Seymour, you're saying you'd rather give up a 50 yard pass than have someone occupy two blockers? The good outweighs the bad here
from 2 months ago
You're pitching an entirely new defense. I don't know how much you know about defenses, football physics and coaching but I'm going to trust that if Bill Belichick wants three big bodies to anchor his 3-4 defense there's probably a reason for it.
As for the value of cornerbacks and defensive lineman it's not quite so simple as that. If you have no one getting to the quarterback, or collapsing the line like Seymour does, it doesn't matter if you have Champ Bailey and Deion Sanders, WRs will get open. This patriots team was built from the lines out for a reason. Do you think their starting DL are all first round picks by coincidence? You can find pro bowl corners in the 4th round: see Samuel, Asante.
from 2 months ago
i stated ever so clearly in the article the pass rush is something green brings to the table more than seymour does, and green is a good 290 pounds, enough to take on one blocker, i already siad that wilfork will take two blockers and ty warren will take at least one..thats why you have LBs and a rodney harrison on your defence..oh and i forgot about john lynch, did you see how he lined up in one of they pre-season games..he was like 9 yards off the LOS like a deep MLB...and yes you CAN find pro bowl corners in later rounds but its not that common
and one last thing, i dunno why you have to start attacking me on my knowledge, im sure i know ENOUGH or i wouldnt even be havin this conversation with you, so lets just keep it a bit more mellow because in the end we're all just sharing our opinions.
from 2 months ago
Dude first off, I didn't attack you, i just said I don't know how much you know about football. I don't. That's not an attack, it's a fact. If I had said "you're full of bs and have no idea what you're talking about" that would be an attack. If you're some football genius that has a new variation of the 3-4 base defense where one of the ends is there solely for pass rush purposes please lay it out for me. I would enjoy reading it.
But you're comparing apples to oranges. Jarvis Green has more sacks than Seymour because he's a pass rushing DE. That is not Seymour's role on the team. The role he plays is vital to how the 3-4 defense works. You can't just say they both play DE and one guy has better numbers so the other guy should be traded. It's not that black and white.
Of the six teams you mention that could be interested in Seymour, 4 don't run a 3-4 defense which he's best suited for, another are the rival Jets (don't think we're giving them a pro bowl defensive lineman for anything). That leaves Cleveland. They didn't even have a first round pick this year.
So you'd rather have Jarvis Green and Leodis McKelvin (at best) starting on defense than Richard Seymour, Jarvis Green and Terrence Wheatley. I'll take the latter and that's my opinion.
from 2 months ago
Are you sure you read my responses? I already said I understand the value of Seymour's value to the 3-4 scheme, but I've already said, there are other pieces to the Pats defence that can make up for whatever Green lacks and that Seymour has.
In my article, I stated other reasons that Seymour should've been traded other than the pass rush..
Yes, Seymour is best suited for a 3-4 but he can still play all four spots in the 4-3. If you think he's to big to play end, just like at Cullen Jenkins, he's doing fine. This is just a misunderstanding but the teams I mentioned ahd either a young LB or CB..not a first round pick, I did not mention any teams they should've traded Seymour to to try and get a first rounder..I just said they could've tried.
I respect your opinion, but Green and Seymour don't play together on the field that much unless it's 3rd down, let alone, them starting.
2 months ago
I don't agree with your analysis. Green, although a good player, is a one trick pony. He comes in in passing situations and is a pass rusher. This is why his sack #'s are up over Big Sey's. Also, his sack #'s wouldn't be as high if Seymour was not on the other side of the line getting double teamed. No one plays in a vacuum, and you can't say that Green would be a fill in for Seymour. He doesn't command the double team in running plays, which puts more pressure on Wilfork and Warren.
You also imply that Mayo was drafted @ 7. He was not. As everyone knows, they traded down and picked up a 3rd and selected Mayo with #10. Youth on the LB corp was a need, and an intelligent LB like Mayo does not come around very often. If he's the right player for the teams system, and he won't be available when your pick comes around again, how is that a stretch?
from 2 months ago
I can respect that but I'm speaking in the perspective of before the draft..if they found a deal for Seymour than they would not have traded down, or at least got something more than a 3rd round pick. Yes Mayo is smart and we all know Belichick has a fetish for smart players, but you watch him tackle in the pre-season and it's like UGH..players are runnin by him left and right front and center
2 months ago
Nice article. I believe the Pats Defense is just simply too old overall throughout and not really all that good. Rodney Harrison has been that strong, the LBs aren't what they were a few years ago, etc. Brandon Merriweather has not produced that well and if your top cornerbacks are Ellis Hobbs and I guess Jason Webster right? Then..oh boy.
from 2 months ago
Webster was cut earlier this week...guess your all over the state of the Pats.
from 2 months ago
well I only knew the Pats signed him and assumed he would be like their number 2 or 3 guy. My bad.
from 2 months ago
Thanks for the support :)
2 months ago
the thing about Seymour is that he was healthy last year. Also in that 3-4 scheme the Patriots run, whenever Seymour lines up the offsensive lines priority is getting two blockers on him. Plays get shifted away from him because he is a dominant DT. That can happen to defensive linemen. Sometimes they are so good their stats don't show it.
2 months ago
I have to disagree with the majority of your article. First off, the statistics that you gave in respect to Richard Seymour's performance is completely invalidated, because the defensive end position in a 3-4 defensive scheme is completely different from that of a 4-3. The job of a d- end in a 3-4 is simply to draw the double team and stuff the run, and Seymour still does that as well as just about anyone. Jarvis Green is a talented player, but he is a pass rush specialist and is used primarily in 3rd down and 4-3 defensive situations. Also, Seymour, at his age, would definitely not be able to draw in a first round pick. I mean, Randy Moss was traded for a 4th round pick, and Brett Farve for a conditional 4th round pick. This shows how the trade market works in football. A player like Seymour at his age would garner a 4th or 5th round draft pick, prob nothing more than that. Also, only 3-4 teams would have significant interest him, thereby limiting potential trade options.
from 2 months ago
I may not be the smartest person around her but I think i can still understand that the 3-4 d-end is different from the 4-3 d-end..and it was my mistake to say that seymour would get as high as a 1st round pick, and one other thing, moss and favre are both past their primes, i wont take anything away frmo them because they are both still exceptional players but seymour is 29 still considered to be in his prime..so maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick...and as James mentions below, seymour is very versatile and not only 3-4 teams would want him.
2 months ago
Others have mentioned that 3-4 DE's get no stats. Although I like Green, he is a pass rusher. Sort of like Dwight Freeney. Yes, Freeney is a great pass rusher, but I'd rather not have him or Green be the main option in the 3-4 the Patriots run.
Then the question is who do you get for him. (We'll assume Green is OK at DE for all 16 games.)
A CB? Please? That position is over rated since the "re-emphasis." A LB is interesting but unless you are talking like Urlacher...
Oh, one of those games from the second half was the Colts. Yes, many teams had a problem stopping Manning.:) No excuse for philly or balt. though.
from 2 months ago
They actually do have an excuse for philly AND bal..in philly, aj feeley who we all know not to be a star qb, was able to stand back there all day and pick apart the weak pats secondary, thats why a cornerback is important..and in bal, it was like McGahee had soap on his jersey, the pats could not tackle him..and to link these two issues, rosevelt collvin who was having a good year was injured in both these games..thus putting junior seau in to tackle runs in the middle and nullifying the pass rush from the outside..green, wilfork, warren up the middle, and colvin, vrabel around the edges is deadly
2 months ago
Your article clearly peaked some interest and got people thinkig, including myself, and that a good thing. However like most of the others i have to disagree with your thinking. Seymoure is a great player, and over the last few years it's true that he's dealt with some injuries, but the truth is we've seen the defense play much better when he's out there on the field. As soon as Big Sey returns the run defense gets a whole lot better and the pass rush improves as well because he always draws multiple blockers freeing up the other lineman and linebackers. What allows Greens success is the fact that he can come in fresh against lineman that have spent the game playing one of the leagues best d-lines as well as a slew of crafty veteran linebackers.
It would be almost impossible to get a trade that would have an impact on the team the way Seymoure does. Any of the teams you mentioned wouldnt be willing to trade a young prospect talented enough to be worthwhile for the Patriots. And packaging Seymoure and the pick it would be impossible to find some team willing to match that.
from 2 months ago
You have some very good points in there, but when Seymour was injured, Green was in there playing every down and they did fine..and also if a teams feels that they need a defensive lineman bad enough they will pull the trigger on a deal
2 months ago
Seymours ok, My main reason is he plays the trombone....Anyway he has five pro bowls and has made the Pro Bowl as a d-end and as a d-tackle....Seymour can play in any defense at any d-line position so cut Big Sey a break....He's doing ok for himself for a guy that went to Georgia...................
2 months ago
Bob, I can't seem to respond to your last comment directly, so I'll stick it here and hope you see it. You said that if we had traded big sey we would not of needed to trade down. Who would you of taken with the 7th pick? Remember, the current pick @ 7 got $49 million, with $19.5 million in guarantees. By dropping back 3 spots, they got the player they were targeting, an extra 3rd (Crable..and I think he's going to be a steal, he has a nose for the ball). They also saved about $30 million in cap costs. ($18.9 million, including $13.8 million in bonuses and guarantees for Mayo). No need to grab a CB that high, if they wanted to invest that kind of change into a DB, they could of extended Asante. Another DL to replace Seymour who you just traded?..why would you do that. Seymour is cheaper, and a proven commodity. Your scenario, while intriguing, is not logical from a football perspective. Sey, Warren and Vince make up arguably the best 3 line presently in the league.
from 2 months ago
i was saying that if they traded Seymour, than they have less needs after the deal was done than before. And if that were the case, they could have the choice of staying at #7 or trading down and getting more than JUST a 3rd round pick.
2 months ago
Your not making sense. To trade down and get more, they would have to of traded into the 8th or 9th spot. The draft point system determines what a pick is worth, and they got pretty much face value...how would they of gotten more for the 7th?
You really have a circular argument in your article. You claim that Seymour can be considered a flash in the pan ("Yet one can also argue that Seymour is a one-shot-wonder"), yet you think the Pats can get great value for him in the trade market. When Moss commands a 4th, and Farve doesn't get much on the market, you expect the Pats to get value for a run of the mill DL. Which is it. If he's good enough to demand a #1, we should keep him, shouldn't we?
from 2 months ago
When it comes down to it, Cincinnati AND New Orleans wanted the #7 spot. And if the Pats held the pick long enough, then these two teams would be fighting over the pick non stop, making each offer better and better.
Farve is what, 38? And what did Moss accomplish in Oakland? One other thing is, they are both already on the other side of 30. In my opinion Seymour is a one-shot-wonder but in probably 95% of other peoples minds, he's not. That's where the value is...you see everyone comment here trying to defend Seymour because they all think he has value.
2 months ago
TERRIBLE ARTICLE
from 2 months ago
Did I ever say you would like it?
2 months ago
How on earth would the patriots trade away seymour. LOOK AT WHERE HE WAS DRAFTED. IDIOT
from 2 months ago
Wow one thing and that determines why he shouldn't get traded..good job.
2 months ago
Bob,
You obviously don't know the way the draft works. How could the pats have "held on to" the 7th pick longer? they only have 15 minutes to make the pick. If, as you claim without proof, Cincinnati AND New Orleans wanted the 7th pick and were willing to offer up more for it, why didn't it happen? Now your calling BB and Pioli incompetent?
Up to now, I have given you the benefit of the doubt that you had an inkling of football intelligence. Now its obvious that you have no real clue on what running a football team is about.
Everyone here is defending Seymour, cause you don't know what your talking about. Its that simple.
from 2 months ago
Did you even watch the draft? Do you even know what team needs are..DT was an obvious spot both the Bengals and Saints were looking at, its not rocket science.
Everyone here is defending Seymour because they think he's better than Green, not because of the incompetent reason you gave.
2 months ago
Bob,
Just because a team needs a DT, does not mean they will over pay in the draft for that position. As for incompetent, that would be the very definition of your article. You make unsubstantiated claims on what the Patriots could of got in the draft, and assumptions that the Patriots staff is incompetent when they made the draft trade. You claim, again being uninformed in the matter, that the Pats could of got more in the draft. Go look up the draft points table, (try google, its your friend), and look at the trade value that was made, and try and make an intelligent argument that the trade to 10th was a bad one. You assume that the you have some inside knowledge of Seymour that professional football managers do not. Seymour is one of the top ranked DT/DE in the league and you got it wrong.
from 2 months ago
Did i ever say the pats staff was incompetent? No. And when did I say i had inside knowledge on Seymour..whos making "unsubstantiated claims" now? So if Seymour is one of the top ranked DT/DE in the league why cant the pats get value for him?
Oh and by the way, you had GREAT words with all the ones starting with"un"..and haha google is my friend eh..better than having a dictionary
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