The original pound for pound debate started between 1940 and 1950, when a boxer by the name of Sugar Ray Robinson was terrorizing opponents with a lethal combination of speed and power. Back then, it was less of a debate and more of a consensus, as Robinson won 121 of his 122 fights during the decade, 79 of which came via KO or TKO. The only blemish on his record was a decision loss to Jake LaMotta, whom he would later defeat on four separate occasions. LaMotta himself even considered Robinson to be, without a doubt, the best pound for pound fighter in the world. Later on, future boxing greats Muhammad Ali and the other Sugar Ray, Sugar Ray Leonard, had similar praise for Robinson.
Fast forward to 2008 and the sport of mixed martial arts, and the number one fighter in the world isn't nearly as clear cut. Dana White insists it's Anderson Silva. Others argue that it's GSP or BJ Penn. Fedor Emelianenko is a popular choice, and I've even heard people give their cases for Urijah Faber and Miguel Torres of the WEC.
While I have a healthy respect for Faber and Torres, I think most people would agree that (in no particular order) GSP, Penn, Silva and Fedor are the pound for pound top four. Most polls I've seen consider Silva to be the top guy, followed by Fedor, GSP and Penn. This includes the Yahoo! Sports poll, whose panel consists of MMA writers from Yahoo, SI, NBC, CBS, MMAWeekly, and MMA Junkie among others. While it isn't clear what criteria the panel uses when placing their votes, it's implied that the fighters' records and recent wins are the biggest factors.
I don't believe people fully understand the term "pound for pound," and what it entails. A lot of people think that the fighter who displays the most dominance in his respective weight class is the pound for pound best. Some think it's the fighter with the longest winning streak, while others think it's the fighter with the most quality wins. Not true.
Theoretically, let's say that Silva, Fedor, GSP and Penn were all the same size. Pretend that they were able to keep their speed, skills, reflexes, etc. Now let's pretend they all fought one another, round robin style. That's what the panelists should be thinking when placing their votes. In short, has Anderson Silva dominated the middleweight division more so than BJ Penn has dominated the lightweight division? Sure. Does that make Silva a better pound for pound fighter than Penn? No.
All things considered, here's how I would rank the top four:
4. Anderson Silva
UFC Middleweight Champion
23-4 (Won 9)
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2 months ago
I culd see putting Fedor at number one. There really isnt anyone out their that can match his skills. What I cant see is putting Bj ahead of both GSP and Anderson. My ranks would be GSP,Silva,Fedor and then maybe BJ. I could honestly put Urijah above BJ without calling myself crazy.
You cant put BJ above GSP when GSP has beaten BJ. I don't care that it was at welterweight and I dont care that BJ is way better than he was then. GSP is ten times better than he was back then too. BJ wont beat GSP at welterweight or any weight for that matter. And putting Anderson behind BJ is even more crazy. I think I smell some bias, i mean your name is flyin Hawaiian
from 2 months ago
I know GSP beat BJ. He might beat him again too. But like I said, Tyson Griffin beat Urijah Faber, but where's Griffin on all the p4p lists?
The point I was trying to make about BJ is this: If he was a natural welterweight, he'd beat GSP no problem. Since he's a lightweight fighting as a welterweight, he has problems. Just like when Faber moves from featherweight to lightweight, he has problems too.
About Silva, the dude is 230 lbs cutting to 185. Silva is my second favorite fighter behind BJ, but I mean, 45 lbs is a lot. Like I said, that would be like GSP fighting as a bantamweight.
You're right about my BJ Penn bias. I try to keep it to a minimum, but it comes out every here and there.
2 months ago
I know GSP beat BJ. He might beat him again too. But like I said, Tyson Griffin beat Urijah Faber, but where's Griffin on all the p4p lists?
The point I was trying to make about BJ is this: If he was a natural welterweight, he'd beat GSP no problem. Since he's a lightweight fighting as a welterweight, he has problems. Just like when Faber moves from featherweight to lightweight, he has problems too.
About Silva, the dude is 230 lbs cutting to 185. Silva is my second favorite fighter behind BJ, but I mean, 45 lbs is a lot. Like I said, that would be like GSP fighting as a bantamweight.
You're right about my BJ Penn bias. I try to keep it to a minimum, but it comes out every here and there.
2 months ago
I don't see how anyone could not agree that Fedor is the number 1 P4P, personally. His only loss is from a thumb in the eye that should have been a NC. They had to name a winner to continue the tourny and Fedor couldn't fight with the injury so they gave it to the other guy. Plus Fedor destroyed him in the rematch. In my book that makes him undefeated, I don't care what the official record is.
Plus like Hawaiian says he regularly fights guys much bigger than himself. People have given him a hard time lately because he hadn't fought any top ten talent but the demolition of Silvia has shut them up. Hong man wasn't very skilled but look how freaking big he is and he's not fat. Matt Lindland is no slouch either and was only slightly lighter than Fedor for that fight. The difference in weight between them was less than the weight advantage Fedor normally gives away. If he beats Arlovski with ease too then we'll really have to give him this crown.
My rankings would go:
1. Fedor
2. Silva
3. Faber
4. Penn
5. GSP
I love GSP. In fact I like him more than all these other guys personally but he got KO'd by a lesser opponent. That hasn't happened to any of the other guys. He has a shorter win streak and he's usually got the size and strength advantage rather than giving that away like Fedor and BJ.
Silva is number 2 because he's been SO dominant lately over basically the best the division has to offer. He also usually has the size advantage but I really doubt he walks around heavier than Franklin.
Faber also has beat everyone good in his division dominantly and has a long win streak.
Just my opinion...
from 2 months ago
Jeff,
Small correction. E-Fed was hit with an elbow (not allowed under Rings rules), not a thumb.
from 2 months ago
You're right, my bad. Thanks.
2 months ago
I can pretty much fully agree with this article, and the rankings. It's nice to see someone else actually break down the records and rank those fighters concerned, rather than just 'I luff Silva cuz hes da bomb'.
Mike: "BJ wont beat GSP at welterweight or any weight for that matter." Ridiculous thing to say. We don't know, until it happens. End of.
"And putting Anderson behind BJ is even more crazy." No, it isn't. Silva's opponents have been nowhere near the quality that Penn or GSP have consistantly faced throughtout their career. Silva cleared out a relatively weak division and he's seen as the best middleweight on the planet. He moves up a weight, knocks out James Irvin and he's the best fighter on the planet. What planet is this? Planet Zog? Silva is a heavyweight who fights at middleweight. He went up a weight (big deal, when he's actually 2 weight classes heavier) and was so a heavyweight fighting a light heavyweight. That's really testing himself.
GSP dominates a division with far more talent than the middleweight division has ever had.
BJ Penn (a true lightweight, not a heavyweight fighting as a middleweight) moved up in class and utterly destroyed one of the most dominant champions in MMA history. He then did it again, until his rib injury screwed the fight up (or, as you'll probably claim, his cardio). Lyoto Machida is rightly heralded as the true number one contender. Some can argue that he is the best light heavyweight. Penn took him to a decision, despite the difference in weight.
Stick Silva in with Arlovski, or Fedor, or Nog, or Barnett, or, for a laugh, Lesnar. Stick him in with someone who isn't inferior to his power-to-weight ratio. Doing so still doesn't equate to Penn vs Machida, because the guys I mentioned are in Silva's natural weight class.
He's over-rated as the P4P best.
As for Faber, great fighter. Been following him since he appeared on gladiator nation. 5 round decision against Pulver. Penn destroyed Pulver. Faber isn't above Penn.
Jeff: totally agree. Fedor's a wrecking machine. The one 'loss' he has is possibly the weakest black mark on anyone's record, and as you've said, the rematch was an embaressment. Agree fully on the GSP view, too, he was decked by a much lesser opponent, during a much shorter fight streak.
Style-wise, I'd love to see GSP vs Faber. Now that would be a 5 round spectacle.
2 months ago
Amen to that.
from 2 months ago
Anderson's competition at middleweight has been average, at best. And moving up to 205 and beating James Irvin isn't exactly a challenge, especially when you're bigger than he is to begin with. A Fedor vs. Silva fight would answer a lot of questions, and isn't as far fetched as people think since both guys walk around at 230. I doubt it'll ever happen - in fact, it won't happen - but I'd like to see it.
BJ Penn moving from 155 to 170 and beating Matt Hughes for the title is one of the most impressive wins in UFC history. Back then, Matt Hughes was seen as unbeatable, much like Anderson Silva is right now. He was 34-3, had defended his title 5 consecutive times, and BJ came in and destroyed him in 1 round.
To make a comparison, that would be like GSP moving up and beating Silva in 1 round. People would lose their minds if that happened.
from 2 months ago
I don't know if I'd call Hendo and Franklin "average at best" but I agree it's the weakest division in the UFC (lightweights not too far behind though).
You guys really think Anderson is cutting 45 lbs???? I mean how is that possible?? What do you guys think he actually walks into the ring at, not just walks around 30 days before a fight at?? I'm guessing 200 maybe 205.
from 2 months ago
Silva's competition at middleweight has been average when compared to the other guys: GSP, Penn, Fedor. After UFC 90, Silva was quoted as saying, "I worked hard in training to go four or five rounds. I dropped from 230 pounds to 205 and then to 185." When he steps into the cage, he weighs at least 205. Still, walking around at 230 is ridiculous, regardless of how long before the fight it is. Tito walks around at 217, and on TUF 3, Matt Hamill said he walks around at 211.5.
from 2 months ago
See those guys numbers make a lot more sense. Tito's dropping 12 and Hamill only dropping 6.5. Anderson has got some secret if he does this in between each fight. It's one thing to get up to 230 for awhile then cut to 205 then cut again later on to 185. When I was 19 I cut from 195 to 145 (not water cutting) in 60 days and that was pretty hard work.
2 months ago
Fedor at number one. There are four others after that. And you might as well just roll the dice to pick 'em.
Machida is still undefeated, and he's beaten
some top fighters. Nevertheless, he's got to show me what he can do with Anderson Silva in order to get a possible number two nod. Until then, he's number three.
Silva's losses and the fact that he grows into a small heavyweight by fight time, keeps him at number two (unless Fedor suddenly fades).
GSP's losses also keep him away from the top spot. He's a solid number four, but could hit number two in a big hurry.
BJ Penn. Same story...great fighter, but those losses...If I thought he could beat GSP, he might have gotten a bump up. But GSP has way too much for Penn, both in stand-up and grappling. So Penn brings up the rear at number five.
Honorable mention goes to any random Shaolin Priest of unknown origin who lives somewhere in the Far east.
from 2 months ago
Three of BJ's four losses were outside his natural weight of 155.
One was a decision loss to Machida. Machida is a light-heavyweight. He's also undefeated. According to you, he's the #3 pound for pound fighter in the world. Think about that for a minute. A LIGHTWEIGHT took Machida, the #3 pound for pound fighter in the world, to a decision. It takes a badass to do that.
The second was a controversial split decision to GSP. Penn was a lightweight fighting at welterweight. He broke GSP's nose. The fight could have gone either way, and a lot of judges would have scored the fight for BJ if they had been working that night. Again, I'll use the Faber/Griffin comparison. Tyson Griffin beat a smaller Urijah Faber, but Faber is the one considered a top 5 pound for pound fighter. Griffin doesn't even make a dent in the pound for pound rankings.
The third loss was to Matt Hughes. Penn was winning every second of the fight up until he hurt himself. I won't go into detail, but anyone who watched the fight would agree. Once again, you have a lightweight dominating the best welterweight in the world.
GSP was submitted in the first round by Hughes, and knocked out in the first round by Serra. Penn could just as easily be 15-2 or 16-1. He has never been beaten decisively. Both of GSP's losses were quick and devastating. Put BJ against any fighter - Fedor, Spider, whoever. BJ would never be beaten in the first round. Ever.
I find it interesting that you say GSP has way too much for BJ in stand-up. It's almost as if BJ didn't bloody GSP's face last time they fought. Oh wait...
It's even more interesting that you say GSP has way too much for BJ in grappling. It's almost as if Penn isn't a world champion in BJJ. Oh yeah, that's right...
from 2 months ago
One thing I will give BJ... I think he has the most untapped potential of the top p4p guys. All the other guys work really hard to be that good (except Fedor he's a cyborg) but BJ just kinda strolls in and kicks ass. Freaky, gifted abilities that kid has.
2 months ago
Fedor is indeed #1.
It's disturbing and weird that he can take out in 36 seconds a guy who recently walked thru Vera, beat Arlovski twice, took Randy to a decision while injured, did good VS Nog, and beat guys like Rothwell and prime Ricco. To make things even more strange, Fedor beat Tim at his own game, AND finished him with the exact same move Randy failed to execute despite 5 minutes of trying.
BJ is nuts, but even he thinks it's Fedor, so does GSP.
I'm not a big fan of Anderson, a guy who is by far the biggest guy in his division with the longest reach, he should go up to 205! But obviously amazing fighter thou.
Machida is great, but untested on the highest level of MMA at this time. Let's wait and see.
2 months ago
Flyin Hawaiin,
I cant believe you have only written two articles and have no fans! Everyone who commented on this article better show some love. I thought you did a good job of making your case here and you encouraged some really good debate. For that I give you a POTD. 14 comments on 50 reads is an unheard of ratio!
And you got through the whole article without calling anyone a nuthugger, except yourself =) Also, I liked the little intro with the boxings referecne. Always makes for a stronger article when you connect your topic with something else.
I do have a question for you: If GSP beats Penn at UFC 94 will that flip their rankings in your opinion? Would that be Dependent on how GSP wins?
While BJ is a considered a lightweight, I dont know that he isnt also considered a welterweight. He held that title there and has fought enough fights above 155. What I am getting at is, if GSP does beat him I dont think you can use the excuse that, well BJ is truly a lightweight so....
In my mind its a sqaure fight. If GSP wins he is a better P4P fighter then BJ Penn the same holds true. Would you say thats a fair and accurate statement?
Again great job encouraging discussion on a fun and endlessly debatably topic. And write more articles!
from 2 months ago
Thanks for the POTD. If GSP wins at UFC 94, I'd have to rank him ahead of BJ as long as it's a legitimate win. For example, if he wins another highly controversial split decision, my opinion probably won't change. But if he's able to dominate BJ like he did Jon Fitch, then absolutely. BJ is my favorite fighter of all time, but I'll still give credit where it's due.
Even though BJ says he'll defend both belts if he beats GSP, I think his heart is in the welterweight division and he'll vacate the lightweight title. Originally, moving to lightweight was just temporary in order to get revenge against Pulver. Then I think he decided he wanted to win the title that had eluded him since the first Pulver fight. And then I think he got caught up in the Sherk drama and wanted to kick his ass. He really doesn't have anything left to prove at 155, and has several intriguing matchups at 170. Obviously BJ is a fighter who thrives on challenges, and in that sense, he'd be better off as a welterweight. As much as I'd like to see him stay at 155 and defend against all the up and comers, I don't see it happening.
I suppose BJ is as much a welterweight as he is a lightweight, especially now that he seems to be planning an extended stay at 170. I just hope he becomes a true welterweight. By that, I mean I hope he's able to look as fit at 170 as he does at 155. In the past, he's essentially been a lightweight with 10 extra pounds of flab when fighting at welterweight. Hopefully this time around the extra weight will be muscle. I just don't want size to be a factor against GSP. I want the fight to come down to whose skills are better, and who is truly the superior fighter.
As far as articles go, I haven't been writing many, mainly because there was a period where nothing in the MMA world interested me enough to write about it. Right now is an exciting time to be an MMA fan though, so I'd be writing on a more regular basis. More than likely I'll do a UFC 91 prediction within the next few days, and whatever else comes to mind.
2 months ago
You did a great job stating and supporting your opinions. I gave you five stars. When you were discussing walking around weights, I remember when BJ admitted to being 200#. It still bothers me that he didn't challenge Anderson Silva for the 185# belt. He held the WW then wandered away from the UFC to K1 and other things, came back and got the LW belt. Why didn't he go for 185#? He wanted to leave a legacy that was out of the ordinary. Georges has won WW twice--wouldn't the plan I mentioned have made more sense? I commend you, like Brian did, on the comments and discussion you have stimulated. It is a pleasure to have you in our MMA community. Another plus is you balance the opposite opinion in my case and even things out. Hang in there.
2 months ago
Yes, Flyin',
I like a writer who's willing to go out on a limb and pick the pound-for-pound in the world. And provide solid back-up reasons for his or her picks. Best fighter opinions always makes for a good spirited, and (usually friendly debate).
I'm looking forward to your next article!
2 months ago
Then again, on second thought...
2 months ago
Great article.
I would have to go Silva then GSP because Silva is maybe the best fighter in the sport and GSP is maybe the only man that might have a chance of beating him.
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